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Defense Discussion


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#1 OFFLINE   Dazzu

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:31 AM

After being drugged and dragged by Matias to an undisclosed location and forced me to check out how DEF works, I'm wondering if the majority of players take DEF into full consideration on their builds.

iRO Wiki Classic's definition and calculation for DEF

DEF

See DEF for more detail.
Defense: Your defense rating against physical damage. It is shown as A + B in the stat window, where A is item-based DEF rate, and B is VIT-based DEF rate. The item-based DEF rate cuts damage by %, whereas VIT-based DEF rate is pure reduction with that number. Be aware that the status window does not accurately represent the DEF added by upgraded items. Each + on an upgraded item is shown in the status window as 1 item-based DEF, however damage is calculated with each + providing only 70% of 1 DEF (so 0.7 DEF). This means, if you have DEF listed as 10+5 and enemy just did initial damage worth 80, then you'll receive 67 damage.



Defense is split into two parts - Hard DEF and Soft DEF.
Hard DEF is the variable that you'd get from your Armors and its upgrade level. For every upgrade on your armor, it gives a bonus +1 DEF on your Hard DEF. And Soft DEF is basically your VitDEF (base and bonus). Your Hard DEF is the number on the left side of the summation of your defense, Soft DEF is the number on the right.

What's the difference?


- Hard DEF is a % damage reduction from Physical attacks giving 0.8-0.9% reduction for every 1 DEF, and Soft DEF is a basically a flat damage reduction. Let's say I have a defense of 40+127, and my opponent has an ATK value of 1500. Considering that I'm not wearing any damage reduction equipment (aside from my armor def), and my opponent does not use any damage boosting equipment, the calculation for the total damage done to me with a melee attack would be:

HardDEFval=40
HardDEFper=(40*0.9)/100=0.36
SoftDEFval=127
EnemyATK=1500

Total Damage Reduction=(Enemy ATK - ((EnemyATK*HardDEFper) + 127)) = 833

It is a huge damage reduction, but on this server's standards, it is hard to get such Hard DEF values without sacrificing Armor cards, and add the fact that you are prone to being a killed by any item that is designed to turn your DEF against you, such at Thanatos Card and Ice Pick.



What if I have a negative HardDEF value?

- In a very condensed version, you basically take additional damage depending on your HardDEF, plus your SoftDEF value.

eg:
HardDEF = -27
SoftDEF = 124
EnemyATK = 1500

TotalDamageReceived = 1500 - ((1500*(-0.24))+124)) = 1736

How does Thanatos Card and Ice Pick work?

Their script's main function is bDefRatioAtkRace. Since Matias won't let me see the actual formula for the function, I've done quite a bit of research and found out its formula (on official servers) is (ATK*((HardDEF+SoftDEF)/100)). Though I've heard before that Maurice actually tweaked that ratio.

Going back to the previous calculation, if my opponent is using an Icepick (ATK:80), and he hits me with Melee damage, the new calculation for it will be:
HardDEFval = 40
SoftDEFval = 127
EnemyTotalATK = ATK = 1580

TotalDamage = (1580*((40+127)/100)) = 2,639

I have not completed the part of research where if the damage output, post Thana/Icepick calculation, will still be reduced by the %reduction from HardDEF. But theoretically, IF HardDEF and SoftDEF still reduce the total damage, then the damage output will be around 1,562.

Discuss.


#2 OFFLINE   Xyaru

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:37 AM

Im still wondering from last night..

Do you know what the Calculations would be if say, I had weapon on with Both a Thanatos Card and an Incantation Samurai Card?

#3 OFFLINE   Dazzu

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:45 AM

I haven't gone into that issue yet, but from past research, I've heard people say that Incantation Samurai card prioritizes over Thanatos Card first. So essentially, Thanatos Card (or ice pick) will have to calculate its damage at 0DEF. It stacks, but not as effectively as you think.

#4 OFFLINE   Xyaru

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:54 AM

I haven't gone into that issue yet, but from past research, I've heard people say that Incantation Samurai card prioritizes over Thanatos Card first. So essentially, Thanatos Card (or ice pick) will have to calculate its damage at 0DEF. It stacks, but not as effectively as you think.


Thats interesting in terms of priority.

THe reason I started thinking about that combo was because of in the +10 Sets forum, it was mentioned that one card worked for VIT defence, and the other for Armor defence. But uhm..

Ya.. Math.. Lol

#5 OFFLINE   Kagamine Rin

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:33 AM

4 out of 3 people has problem with math :(.

#6 OFFLINE   Ran Master

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:37 AM

I guess that 133.33% of everyone. =3

#7 OFFLINE   vann_i

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:56 AM

That includes the unborn ones.. :/

#8 OFFLINE   x233h

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:03 PM

Why you would combine Incan with Thana when thana damage increases as DEF increases?

Also, AFAIK, thana damage has a random factor resulting to random damage.

I believe that people do consider DEF in their builds. That's why characters use grimtooth dagger whenever they can.

#9 OFFLINE   obiwankenobi00

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:20 PM

Jomy and I tried to find out how Momo modified Thana a looooooooooooong time ago. I barely remember the stuff we talked about but we came into a fairly decent educated guess as to what the formula actually is.

From my (unreliable) memory, here's what the formula is:

TotalDamage = rand(0.5,1) * (OppAtk*((HardDEF+SoftDEF)/160))

Where rand(0.5,1) produces a random number between 0.5 and 1 every time resulting to the radical difference in damage during continuous Thana hits. The 160 constant was merely what we thought was the threshold for being Thana bait as 100 is too low for high-rate. These two tidbits are basically what Momo changed to balance Thanatos card. Quite ingenious if you ask me.

#10 OFFLINE   Xyaru

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:49 PM

Why you would combine Incan with Thana when thana damage increases as DEF increases?


.. Uhm.. Because as I just said..

THe reason I started thinking about that combo was because of in the +10 Sets forum, it was mentioned that one card worked for VIT defence, and the other for Armor defence.



#11 OFFLINE   S h a d o w

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:02 PM

(Damage after hard DEF) = (Damage before hard DEF)*[(4000 + Hard DEF) / (4000 + HardDEF * 10)]

I did try to get 100 def previousoly, and it does not work with the formula you give but rather i found this formula. Defence is really insignificant unless you have a 10000 def as given by Ahura Mazdah

#12 OFFLINE   Dazzu

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:53 PM

(Damage after hard DEF) = (Damage before hard DEF)*[(4000 + Hard DEF) / (4000 + HardDEF * 10)]

I did try to get 100 def previousoly, and it does not work with the formula you give but rather i found this formula. Defence is really insignificant unless you have a 10000 def as given by Ahura Mazdah


Odd. When Matias and I tested it, it seem to significantly reduce the physical damage at 99 HardDEF. And it also works on both PvP and PvE. Was that formula taken recently, or was it pre-update?

#13 OFFLINE   NoOneElse

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:13 AM


(Damage after hard DEF) = (Damage before hard DEF)*[(4000 + Hard DEF) / (4000 + HardDEF * 10)]

I did try to get 100 def previousoly, and it does not work with the formula you give but rather i found this formula. Defence is really insignificant unless you have a 10000 def as given by Ahura Mazdah


Odd. When Matias and I tested it, it seem to significantly reduce the physical damage at 99 HardDEF. And it also works on both PvP and PvE. Was that formula taken recently, or was it pre-update?


I believe it is not only 99 HardDEF. It is somewhat 99.5 or something.

Example:
VA gives 55 def on its description. When equipped, 5 HardDef is only shown and not 5.5

Edited by NoOneElse, 26 May 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#14 OFFLINE   Dazzu

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:49 PM

I believe it is not only 99 HardDEF. It is somewhat 99.5 or something.

Example:
VA gives 55 def on its description. When equipped, 5 HardDef is only shown and not 5.5


No. Just no. We did the tests, and everything in my original post is pretty much accurate. Valkyrie Armor's 55 def description is a renewal change. Since the server is on renewal with pre-renewal mechanics, every pre-renewal equipment shouldn't have changed to renewal stats, with the exception of its descriptions since it is easy to manipulate.

#15 OFFLINE   Jireh

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:02 PM

(Damage after hard DEF) = (Damage before hard DEF)*[(4000 + Hard DEF) / (4000 + HardDEF * 10)]

I did try to get 100 def previousoly, and it does not work with the formula you give but rather i found this formula. Defence is really insignificant unless you have a 10000 def as given by Ahura Mazdah

This is Renewal Hard Def Calculation.

AFAIK Hard Def in ours deducts by percentage. I have tried having 100 Def at one point, and you will miss (since deduction by 100% is basically 0 which is miss) unless you have Incantation Samurai, or Thanatos/Ice Pick on, given that you are even wearing SniperC at that point.

Edited by Jireh, 26 May 2013 - 08:03 PM.





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